How to make a guerilla L2

Fatemeh Fannizadeh and Melanie Premsyl present at the Ethereum Cypherpunk Congress (ECC#2) in Buenos Aires on building Layer 2 networks as tools for privacy, liberty, and resistance, reimagining blockchain infrastructure through a cypherpunk and activist lens, with a deep dive into the intersection of anarchist philosophy and blockchain architecture.

This transcript is an accessible copy of the original video transcript (opens in a new tab) published by Web3Privacy Now. It has been lightly edited for readability.

Introduction and anarchist philosophy (0:05)

Fatemeh Fannizadeh: [Applause] Well, thanks for being here. I know Vitalik is talking now. It's really an honor to have a few of you here and not in the matcha line over there. We're going to have a conversation today about guerilla L2s, and I think we're going to go there, but I present to you Melanie Premsyl, French philosopher and anarchist, who does the honor of joining us here. Do you want to give a little intro about yourself?

Melanie Premsyl: Yeah. Hi everyone. So I'm a French philosopher. I'm studying anarchy and technology, and at the beginning I was more on the side of territory. Like in the center of France, for example, I don't know if you know Tarnac, or all that kind of group who are more a violent group. The main problem I encountered was that we need to be linked with other people in the world, and a lot of anarchist groups are very limited. We need a way we can communicate with more people from America or South America. And it's why now we are trying to create a bridge with crypto and everyone who is trying to find new ways to fight against the lack of privacy, the lack of liberty, and the violence of the state.

The MEV brothers trial (1:52)

Fatemeh Fannizadeh: Amazing. So basically, we met a couple of weeks ago in New York. We both were attending a trial that was happening in Manhattan where these two brothers, known as the MEV brothers, were being prosecuted because they sandwiched some sandwich bots. I went to the court to watch the trial, and I saw this person here reading Spinoza in French, and I was really curious about what was happening. There was no one in the audience but us two! So I got really curious about what got you, first and foremost an anarchist and philosopher rather than a technologist, to basically come to attend this specific trial, but also to think about Ethereum's governance and the whole validation system and the trial that was happening in New York.

Melanie Premsyl: I think I was just searching to understand if there is a way that the United States is trying to control Ethereum. Because in Europe, we are very out of the game with crypto in the way we don't have a legislation, and I was just checking.

Fatemeh Fannizadeh: So do you think that the United States is trying to control Ethereum?

Melanie Premsyl: I think it's a big question. I think the United States is trying to control everyone.

Fatemeh Fannizadeh: Okay. Yeah, that's fair enough. So for those who haven't followed the trial, after like three or four weeks, it was a mistrial. The jury couldn't come to a unanimous verdict and decide whether or not these two brothers were guilty of violating the rules of the blockchain or not—which is kind of a positive outcome, I think, for crypto, that a court or a jury doesn't decide what is right and what is wrong onchain.

Bridging blockchain with other communities (4:06)

Fatemeh Fannizadeh: But okay, if we just take a step back about what you said of anarchists looking into this technology in order to basically bridge between different groups.

Melanie Premsyl: Yeah. So I think I'm here only for one purpose. I'm not a tech girl, or I'm not part of the crypto game, but what I was watching with another point of view is that blockchain has really disruptive power but is not able to reach other communities that are more territorialized. I think one of the purposes is to create a colorful blockchain, like why we want to speak about L2s, how to create new communities with other backgrounds, with other imagination and imaginaries.

Fatemeh Fannizadeh: I mean, it's really amazing for me to have you here at Devconnect to be honest, because you bring this kind of fresh perspective on this community and what we're doing and our events. Yesterday we spent a lot of time hopping from event to event, and I got your feedback—something that I'm not equipped anymore to see, because we've been dealing with this basically theater for many years. We're all friends, so we're all very kind to each other. But this critical perspective is amazing. I think we can benefit from this, especially because I got really excited to see that anarchists or maybe more leftist people are actually still interested in our technology. Although, despite whatever crypto Twitter fights there are, maybe it's better you're not aware of this whole side of the community. But fights about Ethereum being communist technology—does that sound true to you? Do you think it's okay to say that Ethereum is a communist technology?

Melanie Premsyl: Yeah, I would like to say that, but I'm not sure, because you know there's a lot of people that need to make money, so that's the main purpose of it too. But I think we could just use it like a net communist, that just one part could be that kind of dream. I think it's a dream cake that can be done, but we need to have tools and design that help people out of the technical, very engineering kind of thinking, to understand what it is like.

Decentralization and Layer 2s (6:55)

Fatemeh Fannizadeh: That reminds me a lot about DAOs a few years ago. I don't know about you all, but I was really excited, I was thinking that DAOs are revolutionizing the way we organize as groups and communities onchain and the freedom we have. And in the end, all of this just fell flat. I don't think it manifested at all. It just became more about the voting system, it's not really democratic, it's all about making profit. This whole idea we had of DAOs as a social tool didn't really manifest.

Fatemeh Fannizadeh: But I think we've talked a lot recently about these tools that blockchain gives us and how we can imagine blockchain evolving in five to ten years, and a lot of talks are happening about Ethereum becoming private. I think this is definitely the road ahead: the L1 to be a privacy-centric L1. And also there is the rollup-centric roadmap. So how L2s and rollups will become kind of the main users of Ethereum rather than end users. End users will then move to, instead of being part of DAOs on the L1, being part of various rollups or L2s. So how can we essentially project our imagination into this kind of future of Ethereum in order to build what you said, this subcommunist anarchist space of freedom?

Melanie Premsyl: So I'm French. This is a big problem. Being French, we are a very state nation. So I'm always thinking in a pedagogical and very top-down way. And I think the L2 creates a way that everyone can create mini blockchains, and they are secured by the Layer 1. I would like to see if people can create pedagogical help for everyone for something that is free. I think a lot of groups, like associations, could create their own blockchain, and it will be a way—like you know, federalism is the big main subject of anarchism. How people can manage to hate each other maybe, but speak with each other. So we need to have this kind of federalism in the blockchain. Everyone has a Layer 2 with its own value, and so we speak with the same infrastructure.

Anarchy, freedom, and building tooling (9:53)

Fatemeh Fannizadeh: Yeah, I really like what you said about basically hating each other but still communicating, like not being toxic despite our differences. And the fact that there's like one L1 in this scenario, which would be Ethereum, is also oftentimes said as fascist because we all need to agree with this one set of rules. So it's this one system that is equal for everyone, and you have to basically submit to this L1 or you can move away, that's a whole other question. But if we can decentralize this into a various kind of tiny rollup L2 ecosystem, then we can bring back dissonance and disagreement within this common infrastructure.

Melanie Premsyl: Yeah, sure. I think you are great. I think there's a big responsibility for tech people who have a true way of thinking. You are the only ones nowadays that are trying to do something good, and so you can't just be in your own imagination. And as you say, maybe the problem of fascism—like we are only one, you have a big responsibility. It's not only using Ethereum or just privacy, it's like we are creating the new technological world and we have to choose between if there will be only tech people, or if the tech people will be linked with everyone that wants more freedom.

Fatemeh Fannizadeh: So we mentioned a lot communism and anarchism, and these are almost like curse words in crypto I feel like. You know, it's so tainted and you get instant criticism if you mention this concept. And I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but when I joined crypto, there were more hackers and the anarchist aesthetic was more present. The vibe was more—it was cool to be like this, so a lot of people identified with that. Nowadays I feel like there are a lot still around, but maybe more closeted. Like, is there any closeted anarchist in the room? I don't know! I think they are. So I would say let's maybe take a step back, if you can define actually what is communism or anarchism.

Melanie Premsyl: Yeah. No, I think anarchism is not well known in the way it's very simple. It's just when we arrive to have an auto-organization. So when there are pockets of freedom, pockets of anarchy, like when people are just speaking together with friends, with an association, in work too, and they don't need someone to be the chief, the head to understand and to decide. Because in the end, the human problem is that people want to have a chief. Anarchism is just trying to fight against that profound desire to be controlled by the other. Do we want really to be free? That's the question, and how can we manage to do it together?

Fatemeh Fannizadeh: Something you said yesterday too what was very relevant I think, is that everyone lives anarchy in their lives. Some people are like, "Oh, anarchy, we're so far from it. You're just reactionary, anti-establishment, anti-state." But actually, everyone, whether it's in their family, in their friendship, in some form of relationship, are navigating a realm of kind of lawlessness, of anarchy, where rules are created through the interpersonal dynamic. So everyone has some level of anarchy in their life, and I think starting from there, maybe it becomes more tangible also to talk about it.

Melanie Premsyl: Yeah. Yeah. It's why I think blockchain is truly anarchist, in that way of thinking.

Fatemeh Fannizadeh: Okay. Amazing. I think this is the perfect sentence maybe to end on. Blockchain is anarchist. And also to wrap it up on this, I think what is really important or what I would really love to see in blockchain would be more tooling. Because it's hard for me to imagine anarchist groups or more autonomous sovereign groups to come and just be users of a product. There is not necessarily a market fit in that sense. It's very unlikely that they would just adopt a fully made product. Rather, if you give them the raw material to build their own. So it's more like DIY, build your own tooling, your own L2 rollup, whatever you want to call it. I think that would make crypto even more aligned with us. Merci beaucoup. [Applause]